287. The Fractional CFO Files: The Trusted Advisor with Adrian Message
Episode Details
Transcript
In this episode of The Fractional CFO Files, Hannah Munro is joined by Adrian Message from The CFO Centre to explore what truly defines a successful fractional CFO. Drawing on years of experience supporting businesses through growth, change and uncertainty, Adrian shares why trust, adaptability and strong relationships often matter more than technical expertise alone.
In this episode, you'll learn:
- How fractional CFOs adapt their approach to meet the unique needs of each business and build trusted relationships with founders and leadership teams.
- Why emotional intelligence, honesty and difficult conversations are often just as important as financial expertise.
- How CFOs can enable growth by moving beyond transactions and controls to focus on strategy, education and business improvement.
- Practical lessons from Adrian's career, including scaling businesses, navigating financial challenges and helping finance leaders create greater impact.
Speaker 0
Welcome to CFO four point o, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly, moving from cost controller to strategic visionary. And with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition to win at work, drive your career forwards, and lead with confidence. Join Hannah Monroe, managing director of ITAS, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people, and data. Welcome to CFO four point o, the future of finance. Speaker 1
So hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of CFO four point o. I'm really excited to have with me, Adrian Message, who is one of the fractional CFOs at the CFO Center, so part of our fractional CFOs CFO Center, so part of our fractional CFO series. So welcome, Adrian. So great to have you on the show. Speaker 2
No. Thank you. Delighted to be here. Speaker 1
So just, to get us started, tell us a little bit, I guess, about life before fractional CFO. What you know, where where did you start? How did you develop those skills that you you use in your CFO role? Speaker 2
That's a really good question. I think to be totally, honest, it's slightly random how I got to where I am. I've ended up as a fractional CFO. Did my accounting training, and I didn't go quite according to plan. So I I left that and then went and worked in the fitness industry. And then from there, went in into the, insurance industry and then latterly into, the hamper business. I think what's always attracted me is that, it's about the product. And do I understand it? Do I enjoy it? Can I sort of get an appreciation for it? And ultimately, can I help? So I guess the two key factors for me is being able to learn and to help. And I guess throughout my whole career, it's I've done quite a variety of things and quite a variety of things have happened in my career. It's one of those CVs you look look at and it's not quite straightforward. It's not that perfect first time passes. So I was kind of surprised when I got a phone call from the CFO center saying, would I sort of, would I consider them? Because I would've thought totally out of my league. But what happened was, I think they looked at my CV and saw the breadth of experience I've had, which has gone from, I guess, from small companies right up to PLCs and also across most functions, which for some inexplicable reason, I've ended up, managing quite different sort of quite a different variety of functions. Don't know why, but I think that's the way it's ended up. And and Speaker 1
I'm gonna be honest. I can understand that. I can I I think it's a bit like same with consulting? Actually, the more breadth of experience when you're in that fractional role, the more hats you have to wear. Mhmm. Speaker 2
And Speaker 1
so that that's where that adds value. So what do you like about the fractional CFO piece? You know, do you feel like it's a typical CFO role? Do you feel like it's a different role? Speaker 2
I think it's quite a different role in many ways. I mean, you sort of I think, like, my first day was you go on the training courses and you get lots of really good training from the CFO CFO Centre, so that's great. But what happens on the first day with the client? You sort of, you have your shiny new pencil case and you have your have your pad of paper with the the client's name, and you sort of get in the car and you think, I've been charged out this rate per per per day. What value am I going to bring here? Really? So I went went to my first client, sort of walked in through the door, met him at a local pub. And at that moment, I knew exactly what I needed to do. And it was a very simple question. It was, how are you? Four hours later, I understood exactly what my role was. And I I guess it is that trusted adviser, style of, I guess, style of, help. But I think it's it's far more deeper than that. You you become their confident. You become somebody they can turn to. And with your experience, you can very much support them in ways which I guess is it comes back to they're quite lonely, and they don't know things. So you kind of sort of you sort of meld yourself into what what's required. I think that's sort of quite quite key to make sure that it's something you wanna have or do. There's a real risk that you go to somebody and think, okay. I could be there for the day, which you can be, but you've got to just get emotionally involved with it. You've got you've got to have that sense of I wanna be here, not just intellectually or physically, but actually emotionally and actually sort of want to be part of their journey. And if you can do that, I think you build up a good relationship over time. Speaker 1
And the the you know, there's the phrase that the CFO is the right hand of the of the CEO or the the the owner. Do you feel like it's a different kind of relationship as a fractional CFO versus maybe a permanent CFO enrolled? Speaker 2
I think it's a a different role because in some respects, you could be totally honest. You can be totally authentic in the, in the role you are. I think in corporate, roles, there's quite a lot of politics and you kind of have to just not I'm not saying you need to, but I think you have to sort of guard your language and you're you gotta protect your position, whereas you're coming into something different. You're coming in as you. You're bringing your experience to to them, and you can give them feedback, the insights, the support, which I think comes from a more authentic place. And I quite like that. It's more natural to me in a boardroom. Am I at my best in the corporate? Probably not because you're, you're kind of trying to work out what's going on. There's so much sort of stuff going on. Whereas if it's one to one within a group, you're there. You are it's it's sort of it's it's the you are there having that impact. That makes a kind of sense. Speaker 1
Absolutely. And you you obviously, you mentioned that you knew from the first conversation what your job was. I have you found that every customer that you've worked with needs something slightly different? Like, is is their ask of what of you as that fractional CFO different for each one, or is it the same sort of the same piece, but just with a different flavor? Speaker 2
No. Every every client wants a different CFO. You you can definitely see that in terms of they have their expectations, their understandings of your role. But also, it's the way you adapt to that situation and what what you can give in those roles. Some some, clients will want you to contact them every day. Some will want just are quite happy with the, the sort of your presence once a week. But you've just got to try and work out what is what is right for you, what makes sense for them as well. Because if you don't get that, I guess, that sort of equilibrium between the two of you, it's never gonna work because they may want to be able to phone you every day. You go, oh, hang on a second. I've got other clients. So but, I mean, let me give you an example. One client I went into in, in sort of, it was a lovely, it was a really nice husband and wife business. You walk in there and you sort of, you build your relationship. And, my sort of, regional director left, and we effectively started doing some working together. And it's one of those sort of moments where you really work out what type of CFO you are, really what type of person you are really down deep inside. And that's why we're having this conversation. And it also sort of over the next couple of meetings with them, it dawned them that however good I was, they needed a miracle, and I couldn't give them that miracle. But where they were heading towards was going into administration straight libation. So it was quite clear, but you had to help them understand it. And that is where I think the emotion intelligence is so important. You've got people there who have spent a lot of money into the into the business, but it wasn't working. So my role was to take them into that legalized process to protect them as individuals. So that was quite a lot of quite stressful in terms of getting them to believe in you. But the other really interesting thing in in this is that if you go down that process, you know, well, I knew at the back of your mind was that you're not gonna get paid. So it's really interesting. At this point, I think you work out what type of CFO am I, but also deeper. What sort of person am I? And I decide, well, I was gonna get them into this sort of into this process. So I I recognized I wasn't gonna get paid and and went with it and spent a number of days helping them and speaking to some of their creditors. But I think this comes back to your your question is sort of you've gotta want to be there. You gotta work out what type of CFO are you gonna be to that client because I'm sure some people have walked away, and I can understand why, but I didn't. Speaker 1
And was that quite early on in your engagement with them that you figured out that they were on that journey? Because that must have been an incredibly difficult conversation to have early doors. Speaker 2
Yeah. It was it was quite early on, but you you kind of it's like it it was obvious, but Mhmm. You've been with humans' emotions here, and you need to start peeling the onion. You need to peel back the evidence. And, also, I tried to get them funding, and when they heard the funders talking as well, it it kinda supported what I was saying. Yes. So eventually, it's almost as if you you give a little bit of evidence that's you certainly get to that proverbial tipping point, and then it moves then it moves into something else, and they then they sort of kinda trust you. I don't think I'm ever gonna be on their Christmas card list. I I'm not but I genuinely believe we did the right thing for them. Speaker 1
And and, obviously, yeah, it must have been in, a challenging situation and very different, I guess, to that the other situation that you're talking about in terms of being that sort of that adviser. Let's just talk about, I guess, the different types of CFO that different be you know, businesses need. What what, how is there a way that you would categorize that? Are there the types that you can think of in your brain and go, you know, it a business needs that type of CFO or this type of CFO, or is it more nuisance than that? Speaker 2
I think it's more, nuanced than that. I think, certainly, some companies require the experience the CFO has and that because, actually, they've got a specific problem to answer. Therefore, if that they have that specific intelligence come in, it moves them on. Mhmm. Other types of CFOs will can very much, again, work on specific areas. But I think what what makes I think where CFOs can really benefit is is that variety of experience that they bring with them. Mhmm. Speaker 1
And Speaker 2
it's ability to be able to use that experience, as and when required. It's it's drawing upon what's happened in the past, and it's it's little simple things. It's being able to explain what the profit and loss account is and what the balance sheet, how they link together, which I know is not particularly exciting. But you know what? Occasionally, you get people smiling because actually they begin to understand what it all means. So it's, it's a CFO who has ex, has that experience, but also has that capability of saying, I have no idea what the answer is. None whatsoever. But guess what? I've got a network of people who probably got somebody out there will have that experience. And, again, that's the beauty of the organization I work for. You can go out and throw out a question, and you get some answers answers back. Does that kind of answer your question? Or I don't know if I rambled Absolutely. Speaker 1
No. And I I think I think that's the interesting piece, isn't it? It's it's about that adaptability, about being able to assess what the business needs and then figure out how to leverage the experience that you have to to deliver on that. Speaker 2
Yes. It's I was sort of thinking about that, and it's it's really interesting question because I sort of the I think the mistake I made on the couple is you get over over invested emotionally in the organizations. Right. And you kind of move away from what you should be doing because you end up doing a lot of what I call day to day rhythm rhythmical CFO or really just finance roles. Like, there's one organization where we were sort of I was ending up doing cash calls every day to make sure we had enough cash for the business. And you suddenly realize, okay. That might be the right thing to do, but the the sort of the impact on you as an individual, you've actually think, actually, I'm possibly in the wrong place here now because the organization shouldn't become dependent on me. I have I have absolutely failed if I'm not making myself redundant all the time because I can solve a problem. Let's say I can set up a forecast or a cashier or something, but I should be giving that back to the team or somebody within the organization to empower them to move forward. If I if I'm there six months, nine months later still doing the forecast every month or management accounts, that's not success for me. Success for me is, okay. We've got a situation. How do we get through it? These are things we've done right. We're moving on. The team's being trained, empowered. Then what else what else what else is on the agenda? It's not doing the same thing all the time. Speaker 1
And have you ever come across a client where you haven't been able to deliver what they need and you've had to have that honest conversation with them to say, I'm not the right fit or I've not I've not got the skills? Or have you always been in a position where you've been like, yes. I'm the right kind of CFO for you? Speaker 2
I think the answer to that is it hasn't always gone according to plan. I think I met, one client where I thought I was doing really well with them. You have the meeting. You build out the rapport, and you think, okay. This is going somewhere really interesting. And, guess what? They they cut the cut the agreement and decided, for whatever reason, I wasn't right. The sad thing is they never told me why. Speaker 1
That's a hard bit, isn't it? Speaker 2
I'm I'm sort of old enough and ugly enough to be said, okay, whatever whatever it was, but I think it's this is what comes back to making sure sort of there's perceptions of what we will do. I think it's really important to be able to articulate really quickly if you can, what does success look like for you and what's success look like for them and just make sure you're aligned. I thought I'd done that, but clearly I was horribly wrong. Speaker 1
Well, maybe you did. And actually what they were expecting versus what you were expecting weren't aligned. That's always the interesting bit, isn't it? Speaker 2
Yeah. Maybe it's but I think it I'm not sure. It's one of those ones that I've sat there, and you you scratch your head and, you try what what happened here? But it it it just happened. It's but it it's it's it's the way the way it is. Speaker 1
And you talked about potentially becoming more emotionally invested as a CFO in supporting the founders, etcetera. How do you handle that given that you're potentially working with multiple clients at the same time? You know, that that's a lot of emotional lifting potentially for all. Like, is is there anything that you is is there a like, do you keep certain barriers or certain remits? How do you manage that? Speaker 2
Not well sometimes. I think it's because the two reasons for me joining the CFO Center were to learn, because I wanna help. They're kind of my Achilles heels as well. Mhmm. So you can end up being too involved and, as you described, too emotionally mostly attached. I think if I'm honest, I didn't recognize it. I only really recognized it when I stopped. Speaker 1
Mhmm. Speaker 2
But, if I'm totally honest, my partner, Catherine, she pointed out to me. So he tapped tapped me on the shoulder and going, something isn't right here. Speaker 1
Yeah. Speaker 2
And it and that right is I guess it's the way you talk about the clients. Mhmm. They the the the conversation changes from, oh, they're really excited. We're doing that. We're doing this. We're thinking about that. And it kind of sort of mutes, and it's I think it's going forward. It's trying to work out when you get that sense of muting, actually, something's changing here. I think it maybe this comes back to one of your first question is maybe the CFO or support they want is changing as well. Yeah. And, actually, this is a time to, change. Speaker 1
Mhmm. Speaker 2
But I think the key is is then just having those daily, weekly conversations. It sounds completely trite, but it's just that corridor conversation or go, how's it going? Just ringing up and just keep sense checking it. Mhmm. Because organizations grow. They need different, experience and, skill sets. And the beauty of the model we have is that you can move people in at the right times to do to do the right things. So it's I I I find that it's it's that for me is quite interesting just working out. It's not her CFO isn't isn't for life. It may it may only be for one day, but it's certainly something that you need to keep thinking about. Speaker 1
Yeah. I guess that's the difference to fractional, isn't it? You know, you're you've got to kind of be accepting of the fact that who you're working with and what you're doing might change on a daily, weekly, hourly basis, whereas a more perm a permanent role is very different. You know, you're in it for the, potentially, the longer haul. Speaker 2
But also on that, it's you I'm not it's it's almost if when you're fractional CFO, you're kind of on stage all day. Mhmm. I know you're on stage in in my previous roles, but it's it was a it's almost you you can have that downtime Yeah. If that makes sense. So you can have whereas with your fractional CFO, it's you've you've gotta give keep giving the value and be able to articulate the value because it's ultimately, they're paying for your services, and and it's but I guess it's sort of trying to move Wave Man transactional relationship to something which is really much deeper and actually sort of makes makes sense. Speaker 1
But that constant, like, that constant being on show and justifying the value, like, it it do you find is that is that more wearing than a typical role? Like, if you don't have that downtime, how do you keep yourself functioning at that level? Because that that you know, it sounds tiring. Like, Adrian, you know, like, do you do you how do you cope with that? Speaker 2
I think it's sometimes it's easy, easier than other times. It's I think it comes back to how the relationship is going was And then, like, I kind of liked I think what helped me was having continue continually sort of conversations with the clients. Yeah. It's I couldn't quite get my head around, I'm doing a half day this week, and I'll do a half day next week. I've gotta kinda create the right conversation for me Yeah. Because if I can be in that communication channel, I could picking up the nuances how things are changing and be able to maybe that point about think, well, you could do this or you could do that or, have you thought about that? And it's yeah, it's sort of then it's a very much I guess you sort of you you are juicing the risk of surprise. Speaker 1
Mhmm. Speaker 2
If there's too big a gap, then it's kind of, oh, you restart the relationship? Yeah. Okay. That kinda makes sense. Speaker 1
You're almost it's like keep you've gotta keep your fingers on the pulse between the engagement. So it's making sure that you're, you know, involved. You've got enough, I guess, insight into the business as it's going, that you don't come in the next week and things are all changed because they can in small business, can't they? They're very different to working in the world of big corporate. You can rock up one day and this is happening. And then one week later, it's it's all changed. Speaker 2
Yes. And, yeah, that's that's that's very, very true. And it's and things do move, move very, very quickly. And it's trying to ensure the client has the right support that they need at the right time. And sort of one client was a sort of fascinating business, which is really growing very quickly. And, what what I was able to do there was to give them the support in terms of outsourcing their sort of accounting function. Speaker 1
Mhmm. Speaker 2
But and they'd just relied on a bookkeeper who'd give them their accounts once every sort of sort of every eight weeks or something. So it's a bit slow. Whereas this they now have this accounting structure that did all the transactions for them, did all the controls for them, did the reporting. And it's sort of the relationship changes. It's being able to, I guess, help quickly. Speaker 1
Yeah. And and you obviously talk about the pace of check the pace being potentially different with small versus corporate. You know, what experience from, like, the larger corporate environments were you surprised that was really applicable in the in that smaller environment? Speaker 2
I think the the interesting part was just be able to translate experiences and just explain where things have gone wrong. Because I think there's this idea that you look at corporates that they know what they're doing. Yeah. But at times, they don't. They're just as helpless. There's just more people feeling helpless just as opposed to one person feeling helpless. So I think it's it's that. So they go through quite a lot of not knowing. Mhmm. And I think that can be kind of reassuring. So for ex and but also you can explain your experiences in these large corporations and sort of tie it back into, where where you're at. And so and that so very much helps on the relationship and builds on builds on the trust. I mean, sort of you sort of the conversations I've sort of have had is sort of one organization I work for, we went through a CVA, so, so credit voluntary arrangement and, basically, we had four days to talk to landlords. And so and all the landlords, it's a retail environment, so there were lots of landlords to talk to. And And that's just really interesting to explain to them that this is the process that you went through. And then then it sort of it's kind of sort of it provides a I think it is that reassurance that you've got somebody there who's got these experiences that you know what, even they weren't expecting it, they can help. In fact, it's it's probably wandered there, but that's Speaker 1
And how, you know, because you talked about, obviously, the joys of paying politics and big corporate. Right? And I think a lot of people think that that doesn't exist in small business. Has that been your experience, or is it just a different kind of politics? Speaker 2
It's a different kind of politics. It's in some respects, it can be more personal, particularly if you've got, families involved and shareholders. Speaker 1
Mhmm. Speaker 2
And some of the biggest challenges I've had is how do you deal with, shareholders who kind of outgrowing the process. Mhmm. That it's all started off very simple in terms of we're all in this together, and they've allocated themselves the different roles within the business. None of them are qualified for it. However, should we say the ones who are selling, you don't necessarily need the qualifications for are just natural sellers, but maybe somebody in finance who hasn't got the qualifications kind of has a bit of a limit. Yeah. It's probably unfair to say that, but it just anyway, so I've had a number of times where, or certainly this one company where I've actually had to sit down with one of the shareholders and kind of persuade him life is changing. Mhmm. And, actually, is this right for you to remain? They turned around and said, they're not going. So clearly, I failed. But you you you you you do have those conversations. So, yes, there are politics or it's a or you have a a different type of politics, which is, again, is a is a great one to have is enthusiasm to do something. So everybody wants wants to buy a company or because it's great fun to buy a company. And you sort of take them through the process and say, okay. Right. You explain to them, this is my three red lines, and you go through the process. And guess what? It doesn't go ahead. And it doesn't go ahead because of these three three red lines which I had. And that's when they they come back to you and say, well, thank you for that because if we'd if we'd done that, we'd got ourselves in a complete mess. So it's sort of so it's a different type of politics. But, also, there is, I guess, the other sort of slightly trickier politics when, in larger organizations, should we say, the, the way you deal with employees is is far more structured, and you get and you get you you have the correct, ways of doing things. Smaller companies may be sort should we say some some will be slightly more, gung ho on what HR really means. So so this is where you sort of have to sort of help them through through the process. So it's so it's quite a lot of experience you bring, and it's not and it's not, say, your stories as well. I mean, I've I've helped to grow a business from two to forty million, which was great fun. Did I know what I was doing? No. Did we know what we're doing? Probably not. But we just had good fun and just really tried to, work out what our customer wanted, going to speak to the customer, and then grow with it. And I think it's it's those it's it gives a confidence. Speaker 1
So let's just take, ourselves off on a little tangent, and let's talk about that because that sounds like a really interesting journey that you went on with that business. You know, tell us, you know, what did you learn from it? Speaker 2
Well, what I what I learned, I learned well, it's a it was an interesting journey for me because, when I joined the company, Again, it comes back to what what type of person you are and what you want to do. And so small you may gotta set the scene. Small company, structure's been there for a number of years. All the employees love MD. New kid comes in. New finance person comes in probably sort of everything, has no sense of humor, etcetera, etcetera, will sit in the corner counting beans. Anywhere, I sort of arrived, and and basically there was fraud going on. Wow. So you're on those moments you think, am I really here? Does this is this really happening? And you you kind of have to pinch yourself. You read it in textbooks, and you then sort of have to ask is you ask yourself three questions, really. It's it's very simple. Do I just continue with it? Because it's it's a one level kind of easy, not. Do I go because I or do I stay and deal with it? And it was one of those, I'm gonna stay stay and deal with it because, actually, that is the right thing to do. So you then go through the process. You should you say you learn a few learn a few new swear words, and you sort of lose your employment and get reappointed, and you go through that. All of that, and, at the end, obviously, it went the way it should do, but I had to be there at the, disciplinary meetings. And, ultimately, I was the one who had to be there when the desk was cleared. So I went through the full gambit, and I and it's for me, that was quite forming for me. It was a really tough situation because you've got to imagine, nobody's going to believe you as the new kid on the block. So not only were you dealing with, obviously the issue, you're also dealing with a lot of people who won't believe you because culturally they were looking in a different direction and having to win them over over the next X number of weeks or months took, took a, took a time and it, it really was a lot of being quite careful on how you communicate and what you're communicating, but also just leading lead not leading, but just being honest, but in a way that builds The the risk is you come out and say something straight away. There's no foundation to it. Mhmm. Clearly, there's no emotional foundation. So that was quite an interesting start, but, ultimately, it it gave myself and three others a great opportunity to to build the the business. And, we sort of I think it was we just sort of went for it. And it was and it's one of those moments, I think they, again, they're formative where through just just having good relationships with the directors and and just having the right conversations and but also celebrating success. Mhmm. It was one of the it's the one company where, genuinely, we would sort of, as a whole company, would go out and have and have fun. And and, yeah, that was great. But it was also really curious that we got to a certain level of the of the company's size, and it changed. Speaker 1
Oh, interesting. Speaker 2
I don't know why it suddenly changed, but something happened. I don't know whether it's size or something something changed, but that type of closeness kind of changed. Mhmm. So no. So that was that's a great company to work for. Speaker 1
And, you know, when you think about your role as on the finance side there, how did you become an enabler for growth? Because, you know, there there is sometimes this perception about finance as being the the no people. CFO CFO says no. How did you, you know, how do you as a as a CFO enable the business to grow whilst making sure that you're protecting the business at the same time? The Speaker 2
key thing is to actually want to understand the business. Mhmm. I think what in that business, because it's moving so quickly, it was really important to understand, but also to take risk. Speaker 1
Yeah. Speaker 2
Yes, we can we can be incredibly boring. We can have lots of reconciliations and bore everybody, but that wasn't the style. The style was actually, we've got to, got to go and learn here, got to put, got to put systems in here that enables as actually allow it to move forward. But also from a risk perspective is we're not I hate to say this. We're not gonna get this all right, but you know what? We're gonna get eighty percent right. Mhmm. We're gonna be able to financially understand it, But we've got a we're holding on to an exercise here. This business is moving really quickly. And the risk and the risk is for finances that you just could be able to work out that balance. Speaker 1
Mhmm. Speaker 2
I mean, another example of what another sort of company I went to as a fractional CFO, what was really interesting was that, it comes back to the understanding. I went into the business, and no nobody was really talking to each other. Everybody is quite it's the traditional silo. And I just arranged we had, I think, it was five sessions or three hour sessions just walking through the business process. And it's just really interesting, and there's no there's nothing clever about it. It was just, okay. If we start here, what happens here? And you're listening to the conversations, and some people are going, I didn't realize that. Oh. Mhmm. And it's I think it's sort of it's interesting. It sort of comes back to your point about the sort of empowerment, enablement of people. And this is where this organization is kind of a bit top down. But, actually, when you sort of got people to think and actually sort of realize that they've got the ability to make change, to move things forward, that then then they suddenly realized they could. So so finance yeah. Finance for me is, sort of is enablement and has to be a service center. It has to be a a all out, all throughout the business. I don't want people to fear coming to finance. Finance should we can we can be fun every now and again. And it's but it's but it's interesting you touch upon this point because one of my clients called me in, and we sat down together. And he was the new finance director, and I just went through a very sort of simple exercise with him because I wasn't because I was quite intrigued to understand where he thought he was on his CFO journey. He Mhmm. And I think he needed it as well. So we sat down, and we use a very simple quadrant, which is very much called sort of transactions, controls, reporting strategy. And I got him on his team to actually point out where they spent their time, and it was really interesting. They were spending a a lot of their time in the transactional and control side not getting to reporting or strategy. And I explained to him as a CFO that he shouldn't be in those quadrants. He needs to be over here in strategy. And then it was a case of how does he get there, which is a great place to get because it gets a sort of momentum in the conversation. And in many ways, that's that's brilliant because you you already have this is where you're going. This is your North Star. And so from that, we said, okay. What are we gonna do on transactions? Well, on transactions, we're gonna outsource. So the company outsourced. And then what he can do on controls, we then worked out, actually, we need to change a couple of people. And then he realized from himself, actually, I need to get myself out of the weeds here and actually really sort of move at least be in reporting, then move into strategy. But for me, that that was quite a useful tool just to explain the journey. Mhmm. But, also, it was really useful to explain to the board where finance was going where it where it needed its investments to be placed to support it on that journey. Speaker 1
And I think, like you're saying, it's creating that that that moment where they that realization of the, you know, transactions and controls are an obviously an important part of the role, but they're not they're not the role. Speaker 2
No. Not You're right. It's sort of that that balance between how do I look after the for the CFO, how do I look after the business, and how do I fund the business, and how do I underpin the challenges? Mhmm. It could be growth. It could be whatever it is. It's it's how do you how do I balance my time between those elements, and where where do I need to go? And and it's it's it's it's like those the the scales, where where does the where does the CFO need to go, but also to understand where to go and to be able to lead on it as well and be able to say, okay. This is what we need to do. And this and, yes, this is what success could look like, which again comes back it's comes back to, do people really understand the numbers? Mhmm. And assuming conversations I've had is that it's focused on p and l, the profit and loss, and it's you sit there, guys. This is great. Brilliant. Okay. Wonderful. How are you gonna pay your employees? And it's, oh, yeah. It's a good point. Yeah. What we'll do is we'll do x. And you say, oh, no. Don't do that. And it's and this is where I think as a somebody coming into the business is the ability to look at, to draw back the very fundamental insights you can you can look at a business. I mean, some examples are some clients I work for is is taking forward payments for activities. How how is that cash being used, and is the business creating a hole? Mhmm. So for example, let's say there's not one of mine, but school fees. Speaker 1
Mhmm. Speaker 2
If you take on if parents are paying for next the whole all school fees the next x number of years, you're receiving the cash now. You're not you're not gonna have that cash when you got the same cost in x years' time. It's actually getting people to understand you could be creating a hole here. They or there already is a hole because that because what's happening is your p and l is dependent on the deposits or the school fees coming in. Therefore, you the model isn't right. Therefore, you need to do something. Speaker 1
Yeah. Understanding the balance sheet and and the cash flow and what's coming versus looking Speaker 2
down to Speaker 1
what's done. Speaker 2
Yes. That's that's so it's that's, for me, it's it's quite interesting in terms of those moments. And it's Speaker 1
Yes. Speaker 2
But it's sort of and it goes back maybe sort of trust advisor is those questions that I find quite interesting. There's an assumption that people should know, and I think there's a assumption that the hard part is kinda revealing that you don't know. Yep. And there've been a couple of times with very senior people who sort of come up afterwards, go, can you explain the balance sheet to me? Which is, which is great. So then you sit down on the boardroom and you, you draw up your pictures and you just talk it through. And then every week or so, you just okay. Right. You bring a set of accounts along. We'll we'll work through this logic. And that's I think in sort of many ways, it's sort of we can't keep coming back to the trusted adviser. It's it's there's little moments where you have to smile to yourself. You think, I'm beginning to we'll begin the relationship is beginning. It's getting better. It's getting stronger. Or another one where the one, director said, can you show me how to run the accounts receivable on Xero? Because I don't know. Well, I don't know the state of what the customers look like. You go and show them something, and it's like Christmas. It's sort of Speaker 1
Incredibly rewarding. It must be. Speaker 2
Yeah. But it's and this is where I think sometimes in our roles, we forget. It's the very simple things. We take for granted that we should know this, and we make the assumption that everybody else knows it, but we don't we kind of we don't. They don't. And it's just trying to work out. Or or you'll have those magic moments where you go, okay. This is what it means. And so then it's that's that's me. It's it's it's it's that's you feel sort of that moment you made a difference. Speaker 1
Yeah. Speaker 2
And it and Speaker 1
it's really director school, is there? There's no, like, there's no, you know, minimum training to be able to register a company and and to do this. And it is amazing how many companies get built or without that that strong financial, I guess, base on which they've built. Speaker 2
Yeah. It's and it's I mean, I applaud them. Totally brave doing those types of things. I mean, one it's wonderful. But you're right. It's sort of and then it's sort of the companies kind of grow in a in a certain way, and it's kind of they use their accounts as to do the accounts for them. Speaker 1
Mhmm. Speaker 2
And, obviously, they come in late. They're not necessarily correct. There's no real understanding of them. So it's obviously they gave for a a process. And it's it's trying to work with, the clients to understand the importance of the numbers and the conversations you can have and what it means. Therefore, you need to get the balance between insourcing and outsourcing. Speaker 1
Yeah. Speaker 2
And it's and what type of resource do you need to bring in in house and then how that resource can help. And this is where so again, back to, again, an earlier point is, in theory, I can continue doing these activities, but that's not that's not the way to do it because, actually, they need to be internalized and therefore bring people in. And I know there was we've got AI, etcetera, that we could do lots of magical stuff. But having a person there who represents finance, who wants to go and explore the business and and just be able to structure the reporting that's actually meaningful. That's that's kind that's kind of exciting because you're sort of setting there's a path there. And it's been great fun working couple clients where that that has happened. People will come on board, and it's great. Then I can dive step back, which is fine because they've got the resources they need. So it's sort of there's the CFO, this educational process. It's the support which leads to educational, which then leads to how do you want resource going forward, which it's it's it's kind of interesting. And then this is where I think maybe the CFO model is or fractals is actually quite good because you at what point do you bring a CFO or FD in? Some organizations bring in far too early. You don't need to. Other organizations, too late. So it's it's and if you do bring them in, who can actually help them? Yeah. And, like, again, that that's powerful sitting down here. Have you thought about that? So it's good. That's me. That that's really, really, really interesting. Speaker 1
And so we're we're coming roughly to the end of this session. But, you know, for those that are listening to this that are maybe in the corporate world, right, in that CFO role or the FD role and going, I'm wondering if fractional CFOing is for me. What advice would you give them? Speaker 2
I would explore it. But you've got to want to be in you you want to be that type of CFO. It it is it is risky. I mean, let's let's face facts. You are self employed. So, therefore, you're very much have to help in the, the hunting for roles. And you you have to know how to sell yourself, you know, have to want to help and recognize that life may not be as, so we say, simple in terms of, you know, you're gonna get paid this month. Mhmm. So so I think it's it's explore, look look at your CV and look at all the experience you've got and think about how I could translate that into a small business. But, ultimately, actually, it many ways is you gotta be curious. You've you've gotta be somebody that really wants wants to be there Speaker 1
Yeah. Speaker 2
And enjoy the variety of people and experiences, but also understand you are you will become a trusted adviser, and and that's where the exciting part is. But it's but don't if you want, how does that work? Certainty. If you want, structure, it's it's it that will be a challenge because it certainly isn't. But if you're like like me, you like a bit of chaos and randomness, it's it's good fun. Speaker 1
I love that. And and that's a great bombshell to end this podcast on. So, Adrian, thank you so much for sharing your experience of the chaos. Right, and everything you've learned as, both before and after your journey into fractional CFO ing. And, yeah, I if to all of our listeners, if you've enjoyed this podcast, maybe there's some more questions you have for Adrianne, then please do reach out to me on LinkedIn and let me know. And I wanna say a massive thank you to Adrian for joining me on the show today. It's been great to talk to you. Speaker 2
No. It's been great fun, and, hopefully, I made some sense somewhere, but thank you. Speaker 1
I will no. I think we've I've loved your your your talk about ethics, about transparency, and the on and the realities of what life is like as a fractional CFO, I think, is so very important. So thank you. And, of course, guys, if you've enjoyed this podcast, then please do leave us a review. Share it on on whatever platform you you choose to to spend your time on. And we'd love to we'll hopefully see you next time on the CFO podcast. Thanks, everyone. One of the hardest things, I think, is actually putting into words what it means to work with myself and the team here at Itas. Because not only are we a financial transformation consultancy, but we do it using Sage technology. So rather than me tell you how awesome we are, let me introduce one of our customers. Speaker 3
Working with Itas has dramatically made our lives simpler, because there's just such a knowledgeable team there to help us. Before we felt the consultants we were working with at another company, it was always a challenge to get information out of them, for them to understand the problem, and it just didn't feel like they were on our team. Working with Itas, it's almost we feel like you are all employed with us to, you know, work with us to do it. It's an absolutely fantastic relationship, and it's just made it such a smoother process and an absolute fun process working in Sage Intact and coming on our course. I look forward to it now. 