And then, obviously, you've got a range of stakeholders that you're dealing with as CFO. You've got near the upwards management. You've got the board. You've got CEO. You've got your peers. You've got your your team as well that you're working with. Yep. How do you build that sort of those relationships quickly? Because, you know, you wanna make an impact the first ninety days, but we all know that, you know, people are a big part of driving any kind of change and and impact. So so how do you build trust? You know, have you got any

Well, it's actually important. You're right. And I think it depends on your own personal working style. Some people are really good at reading other people and instinctively know what they need instinctively, you know, for so a good contrast is is am I working with somebody that likes information in advance, or can I be impromptu? Can I just throw in an idea in the middle of a conversation? How do you know, what how do these people typically react when they're really busy and under pressure? Now some people are really good at reading that. It's good to say that I I would say, good fifty percent of the people I work with at this level are not that good at doing that. So what they tend to do through a bit of planning is to check-in with people around these these kind of power figures. And this is where people almost at any level in the organization can be really helpful. You know, they they'll they'll tell you the best way to to, handle difficult conversations with key people. They'll, particularly, you know, the CEO's PA, people like that. You know, that that that can be incredibly helpful to you. If you're nice to them and you ask intelligent and, curious questions, ask about their workload as well. Because when people are respected for their contribution, they tend to think, okay. Well, this is great conversation. I'm happy to be helpful. So, yeah, it's checking. I mean, I've I remember one organization I worked with, and one of the best people to talk to every day was the guy on the security desk because he knew everything that was going on. He knew who was in the building. He knew who was grumpy and who wasn't grumpy.

Should I have a meeting with this person today? I would

Exactly. That's the sort of. Yeah, so the the it's yeah. So I guess have the self awareness to say how good is your own radar. And if you're if you're thinking, I don't really understand what this person's looking for, then check-in with others who work with them regularly, in a noncritical way. So you don't say I'm finding this person difficult. Just saying, I'm working with somebody really busy. You know, I'm just wondering the best way to present ideas and information or, best way to get quality time in this person's diary and so on.

Yeah. And and I guess that's, you know, that's the challenge, isn't it? As as a as a senior individual, a lot of the time, you're wanting time with other senior individuals. How do you maximize that peer to peer relationship? What should you be thinking about when working across the c suite in terms of how you work with, other senior execs within the business? What do you need to think about there?

It's a really good question, but a penetrating question. I mean, it is about relationships. It's about our trust. Those words that we've used, but there those words are very easy to use, aren't they? So sometimes, relationships can be built on, well, it's it's sort of about inputs and outputs. What I mean by that is, the input is what you can learn and that what you can learn from their expertise and their certainly, in the first thirty days, let's say, you know, you you you're gonna be saying a lot. I'd be grateful for your insight into this or where or how would you like this to be shaped and those sort of questions. And the output bits are about the choosing those moments, I think, to contribute. Now one so what I mean by that is, well, let me take the extreme of that. The extreme of that and I have seen this go badly wrong, is people almost get their ego too, flattered in the selection process, and they turn up and they think that they are the best thing since sliced bread. And they want to change everything overnight and order their ideas. Now that's probably not gonna work unless you're specifically hired to be a completely aggressive new broom, you know, which is quite rare. So it's what I'm really trying to say is it's choosing those moments to offer your expertise. And sometimes all you need to do is to say, yeah. I'll deal with that. That's fine. So and sometimes you need to explain it. Sometimes you need to sell the idea. Sometimes it's a good idea, as I said earlier, just to say, well, this is something I've worked with before. This is a an approach I've taken in the past. May perhaps that would be helpful here. Let's give that a go. It's really about understanding how much you are involved as a contributor and how much you're involved as a as a part a real partner on how much you're you're a function. Now, you know, sometimes when you're you're working with senior people in a really busy time of year or when they're under in a a small crisis, sometimes what you could do is listen fast and act fast. You know? There's there's kind of no, there's no avoiding that one, really. Mhmm. But it's also spotting where there are good moments to check-in. So now check-in is quite important, I think, because it's really it's trying to understand or trying to get back to that conversation about you and I. I think we know why you hired me, but let's check-in to make sure that I'm I'm giving you the things that you were hoping for. And you don't do that immediately because you've got to have some sense of getting the that you've already started to establish a reputation as somebody to get things done, and that's quite important. So, you know, there's a lot to be said for quick wins and and getting involved in things where you can show you can make a difference. But a fairly early check-in, light touch check-in to say how how are things going from your perspective is a good idea because we don't you don't want to be at that ninety day day point where you you're perceived by many people in the organization, as a as a disappointment or as an imposter.

Yeah. So so what we're saying is it's best to be really clear on what could looks like.

Mhmm.

Why were you brought on? What is settled there wanting from you? And then I guess, like you say, those sort of those check ins at thirty, sixty days going Yeah. Like, I am I am I on track? Are we where you expected me to be? You know, what needs what what what are I missing? What else do I need to to address that perhaps I've not got to yet?

That's that's that's a reasonable broad framework for doing this. Two factors I think can get in the way of that. One is that it's simply to do with work pressure.

Yeah.

I mean, I've got a number you know, a number of times somebody said to me, well, you know, I really wanna have that check-in conversation, but I can't find the time in my boss's diary. Yeah. In which case, what you do sometimes doing is, well, you you check-in with other people that matter as well. And the other one is where now this is an important thing. I thought we'd I hope we'd get to this one. Where you're hired to make a change happen. Now that's a really important one because that's one way you've got to check-in most carefully. So you're hired to make change happen. And it could be so this is where it's useful to know what the last person in post did. Did they start that change? Did they fail to make that change happen? The other really important check-in is where is this in terms of its, scope of the project? Is this still at the idea stage? And is your is the CEO are the board really behind this? And that's that's to be honest, I would say you need to know that before you accept the job. But it's it's a common scenario in the fast changing world of work that people are changed to make sorry. People are hired to make change happen. And one of the biggest frustrations and the reasons for careers going off track is that organizations don't really mean it. They don't believe in it. There there's no investment psychological investment in that change. And therefore, well, how are you gonna manage that? That's and there are ways of managing it. You can do something incremental. You can you can do a pilot study. You can you can soften it. You can reduce the risk to yourself. But I think that's a really good example of where checking in against the expectations of why why you're hired, the job you're supposed to be doing against what's actually possible is a really important thing to do.

And and I guess that's the piece around change. And, obviously, with what we do, working in technology, we come a lot a lot of leaders that have been brought on board to drive change, change in systems, processes, people, all sorts. You know, like, they're going on a genuine transformation journey. What advice would you give somebody about assessing the pace of change? Like, how quickly should they be pushing through these changes? Because like you said, it could be that, like, I idea stage. They come in and, like, right. We were going into selection stage now. And and and so how do you I guess, what questions would be asking to find the balance about, should I be making this this agreement? Because you'll have some people make the top that want it and they want it yesterday. Mhmm. And then you've got an entire team that's in here. We're not ready. We don't have the process.

Yep. Well, so let's assume you've done some of that, and you've accepted the role, and you've reset the role, warts and all, if you like. Yeah. Checking with the people who think that this is a wonderful idea is is a good thing. So and and going deeper on that. So why is it a great idea? What where what are the benefits here? And and what are the obstacles? Where are we in the moment? So that's that's the important thing. Because if if senior people are behind the idea and change has already started, then you probably got a fairly good chance that you can have something good to put on your CV. If it's still an idea in somebody's mind and several, you know, key players in the organization have not bought into this yet, then you've got a challenge on your hand. And as I mentioned a second ago, you know, there there are things you can do. It's not a disaster. You can you can just look a part of it. But it's just checking buy in and and looking at people who are naturally going to be sabotaging this as well, to be honest. Because we talked about, you know, blockers and enablers, and then there are saboteurs as well. You know, there really are. So but you it's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? Because I agree with you. Almost every organization that you could find out there is is either restructuring or they're changing the way they work or bringing new technology or they're doing something radical. And yet it's about really saying, well, who's who's a champion of this? Who's really on board? And who's gonna slow us down? And, and often it's about really checking in with people about the impact this change will have on their work. And sometimes, I think good CFO can do some groundwork to say, yeah, this is something we're gonna work through together. It will give us a headache initially, but the long in the long term, the benefits are, extensive. So it's it's the hearts and mind stuff going on. And I always like to see people in, you know, in in key financial roles like this. They're not just good at sort of managing the the the numbers and holding the levers of power, if you like. They've got enough people skills to be able to bring people along with them as well. So that's can be a really useful contribution they can make.

And I guess, you know, finance is specific to this in that, you know, I think very often things can be uncovered once you get into the numbers. Right? So, you know, once you actually start looking at that balance sheet, you start digging into what's actually happening operationally, you're likely to find some interesting things. Right?

Have

you got any tips for having those difficult conversations early on? Because, you know, in ninety a couple of day, you know, days in, you may not have had the the, what's the word, the the tenure to to really establish trust and and and then you've gotta go straight into perhaps a difficult conversation about what's going on in the organization. So what have you got for anybody on that scenario?

I like your word interesting, discovering interestingly. I know what you mean. In an ideal world, this wouldn't be a a complete shock to you on the first day that you turn up at work. It really shouldn't be. Go back to my analogy. If you were putting your own money in, you know Yeah. You'd be asking other kinds of questions. Let me put it that way. But in a scenario where I mean, it is what if it's it really is, a scenario where information is not being disclosed to properly or the numbers don't smell right, then that might be, you know, a time to chip make sure you've got a good good external coach and a good mentor and think about how do I make this work and what's my exit plan. But in a in a more pliable situation where maybe the numbers are not great, but, you know, that it's a fairly typical kind of massaging of of information. Then I think what we talked about the kind of people you're checking in with early, there's always people around in in the financial functions who actually know where information sits properly, and they know what the true numbers are, and they know what's the underlying reality is. And those are those are people that you want to get on board really fast. So let's be clear about what I mean by getting getting on board with them. I mean, establishing trust, make make it clear that you're not gonna be treading on their toes. You're not gonna make their life hell, that you're really interested in their opinion and their knowledge and their experience. You're coming to them for their expertise as well. So once you start to build that kind of relationship, then people tell you what the underlying reality is. And I guess that's what we're really talking about here. Is this the difference between, the way information can be presented on balance sheets and so on, and and the underlying reality in terms of what what's really going on and where the organization is is heading. So it's just kind of internal benchmark. Well, I know that people have is to say, well, if we carry on like this, what happens? Which is one of the great questions, isn't it? If we can't because then you're sort of starting to understand what happens in terms of cash flow or the the shape of the business and the health of the business. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, obviously, you've had lots of conversations over the years with people going through that first sort of ninety to a hundred day periods.

Mhmm.

What what do you think at that senior level are some of the the biggest mistakes that people make in terms of you know, are there any stories you can share about things that people wish they knew before they got it there or things that they wish they'd done once they started the role that perhaps they did?

Well, that's another thing. I mean, things that wish they'd done. Yes. I think they wish a lot of people say, I wish I'd done a bit more due diligence myself. Yeah. I wish I hadn't believed the promises made at interview and particularly where external recruiters are involved. I don't wanna be, you know, rude to anybody about this, but, you know, sometimes a a rosy picture is created about a role. And just hearing, you know, you're perfect for the role. When can you start isn't enough. You you know, you should be saying, what am I really required to do? What's what's the job really about? What what does what does good look like? What what sort of results am I going to have to achieve within ninety days? So that would be the first thing. I think the second thing would would be always about personality. Yeah. That's the first thing that came to mind was thinking again at this level, thinking typically of people going into, let's say, more technical roles at board level, whether that's finance or HR or anything like that. What what they often haven't done quite right is understand the the strength and the influence of key personalities in the organization. Because if if you are working for a narcissist, for example, if you're working for somebody seeing you who's really difficult to work with, and has a bubble around them, so that in a bubble of ego, so that they don't really hear information, then that's probably not gonna change. That may be bad news for some people listening to this. But in my experience, it's very, very hard to deal with because, the the it's very difficult to, to make that change happen, to to do anything about that. There are some strategies around building alliances and getting information from other people and presenting things in a way that is most effective for that personality type. But I guess when when I've got somebody, which is, I think, what you're hinting at, would I've got somebody who's started a job, they're ninety days in, and they're saying to me, John, I'm not gonna be here for the rest of the year. You know? By the next Christmas, I'm gonna be out of here. It's usually to do with personality. So I would say spend as much time listening about, finding out about, checking in with even people outside the organization to learn something about the personality of the key players involved, than you do almost anything else. Because the technical stuff you can do, let's face it. Most of the job you can do Yeah.

No love without having the technical skills

like that. Exactly. So that's why it's interesting, isn't it? People worry about the skills that they're gonna take with them and and the knowledge, but they probably got the skills and knowledge. It's the ability to work with particular context and particular people that they have to deal with. So, yeah, I would say check-in early, ideally before you start, before you ideally before you say yes to anybody that really understands the whether the, whether the the management style, if you like. Oh, and and I don't mean that in vague terms. I really do mean look at the key decision makers and how, how they operate. And, usually, a great deal of that is evident from the track record of the organization going back over two or three years. You know, if it's something that if it's an organization that's constantly reinventing itself or or coming up with new initiatives that don't seem to work very well. It's usually an indication that there's not a really solid, leadership base in there.

And very aware that, you know, and we're, pretty much out out almost out of time now, and this has been a great conversation, John. But, I guess, what are your final sort of top tips to a successful first ninety to a hundred days?

Okay. Land quickly but carefully. So it's finding the right balance between, this is all new to me, and I'm I'm here to learn. People who just turn up say I'm here to learn, that's not strong enough because you're not there to learn. You're there to give something. But on the other hand, at the end of the spectrum, if it's, I'm here. All your problems are solved. That's not gonna work either because you are gonna tread on so many toes. Yeah. So checking with your own reputation, this is this is the important thing I wanna get across here now is that you start with a reputation that's formed in some ways during the selection process from the way you present as a candidate. Before you walk in the door on day one, people know something about you. Now it you need to check-in with that and find out what it is and maybe build on it or maybe adjust it. So understanding your starting reputation and doing something about the narrative, changing the narrative, if you like, pretty fast is probably one of the most powerful things you can do. And I guess what I'd also say, due do your due diligence, due your research, and you're checking in your understanding of the organization at every stage of the process, even before the job interview, and carry on doing it as you arrive. And and they it doesn't guarantee a safe passage under all circumstances, but it's a pretty good start.

Well, thank you so much, John, for sharing your your wealth of knowledge. And if people wanna learn more about yourself, and those fifteen books that you have written, where is the best place to find you?

Well, if you just, type into your search engine, John Lee's and careers, you'll get to my, website, which is johnnys careers dot com. The book I've been talking about today is called Get Ahead in Your New Job, which is specifically about those ninety to a hundred days and, covers a wide range of strategies. And yeah. And if you're interested in my books, well, what's the phrase? All good bookshops and everywhere that we might be interested in buying a book.

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, John. And for those that are interested, of course, as usual, we will put, the links to everything that John has mentioned there in the show notes. And big thank you to John for for joining me today and a big thank you to our listeners for for for for joining us as well. And if you have enjoyed this episode, please do not forget to leave a review. Send me a message on LinkedIn. Give me a comment. It's always great to understand what you've enjoyed and what topics you would like to see in future. So thank you very much for listening to the CFO four point two podcast, and the big thank you to John for joining me today.

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