Yeah. I mean, remembering the body language, I guess, is the most important. You've just got to be aligned. You know, a key component of communication is alignment so that your, what you're saying and your body language are, are completely in alignment to each other. So if you're naturally sort of, I don't know, sort of vibrant by personality, naturally optimistic, great. But if you're delivering, you know, a bit of a harder message or maybe in this case, the financials are not so strong, You have got to adapt your body language accordingly. I mean, I used to sort of present to AGMs. And before I sort of said a word, really, people would know if it'd been a good year or not such a good year. But I had to show up in a way that was, you know, in alignment with with what I was presenting. So if I did smile, which is my slightly more natural persona, then they they knew everything was okay. It it sort of creates a much more relaxing environment. So particularly when you're doing communication in your in, you know, in your words sort of downwards, you know, it's about being motivational. It's about being encouraging and recognizing that, you know, when when you do provide that sort of energy to a group, they're gonna respond accordingly. And that's what you're really doing with communication. You're thinking really what what's my goal here? Am I sharing information? Am I doing it to, to bring, you know, to give, to uplift people and and to sort of encourage them to do more of the same more of the same good stuff that they're doing? Or am I delivering a slightly harder message that that needs a little bit more maybe structure to it?

I don't suppose that many people actually step back and think, do they? The and actually take the time to think through the fact that about the message actually before they they start talking. You know? And I think that's one of the key conversation. The interesting things I've heard from from you today is actually taking the time to think about what is the message I'm giving before you start to talk.

Yeah. And and and, you know, this is against the backdrop of, people feeling very overwhelmed at the moment. People are very, very busy. So if I ask many people at the moment, how are you? They say very busy. They've got all sorts of, tasks that are completing. It's very nice for me to say out from, you know, you should be doing more strategic, less BAU. But in reality, there's a lot happening in, in organizations. So, however, I I I very strongly, and I share this message a lot, think if you give yourself the time to to pause and reflect and then realize that you do have this choice, how you show up, how you deliver a message, how you turn up at a meeting, then it's it's amazing what a change that makes. Because what you're doing is you're trying to step up, step up into leadership. And leadership is about so, so much more than just the doing you. You've got to release some of the, the overwhelm, that sort of feeling, or if I'm just too busy to think ahead, to show up in that very calm and in control manner because that's what people are trusting in. You know, you're you're like the finance leader of an organization. They're looking up to you as the the financial conscience of that organization, looking after that business for the, for the longer term. To do that, you've got to be in the best place for yourself. So, so you've gotta look after yourself and you've gotta keep your own mind clear and be very conscious of the impact that you are having on others around you. There's a, there's a statistic that says you can have an emotional impact on others in as little as twenty three seconds.

Twenty three.

So, so the point is, as a leader, you have got to be conscious all the time as to how you're coming across. That doesn't mean hiding how you are, but just being conscious of what impact your mood, your behavior could have on others.

And I I think that's a really interesting point. Weirdly enough that this came up in conversation over the I think it was last week with somebody. And I think that's a really interesting point is that people or, you know, we talked about self awareness being really important for a leader, but when you are under pressure, a lot of the time self awareness can can drop back because you're so focused on whatever the task is that you've got on your to do list. And so you can be a lot I I I do find when people are under pressure, their self awareness, it becomes weaker and and they tend to to they might react in a way that they don't intend or understand, and that has a detrimental effect on, you know, the the people that they're with at the time. Mhmm.

And the best, you know, the best sort of advice is to make sure that you've got a really solid number two, you can delegate effectively to a really good team. I mean, you know, having the right team, the right skills in that team, you know, the the the people who almost support maybe the change that you're inspiring in the organization, You've gotta have people who buy into what the organization is trying to achieve, buy into what you're trying to do as a leader. You can't do it alone. And I do work with a lot of leaders, particularly more in the SME space who are trying to do too much themselves. And then it's very, very hard to step out of that and then be seen as the leader they want to be seen as because they're just too lost in the detail, too lost in that. So, it, it, it is very, very important to ensure you've got the right people around you to allow that to happen and not to dilute the value that you can bring by trying to do too much. I I'm seeing it quite often now. People are taking on, like, new responsibilities a bit too willingly. And when I say too many, like, sort of in functional areas that maybe are not the the area of expertise. And on the one hand, that that's great. It gives you exposure to new things and and, you know, maybe managing different areas, but be very, very careful that it doesn't dilute your core value and and where your focus should be as a finance lead.

And talking about creating space there. So, obviously, you mentioned delegation quite a few times already during this conversation. So what does good delegation look like? How should you structure and work within that delegation? Because that, you know, if you think about a lot a lot of people in senior roles are perfectionists, they are hate to use the term control freaks, but it can be the case. How do you manage the, obviously, the the ensuring that things are delivered well whilst not taking the responsibility or accountability for literally doing everything?

There's a few things. I think one is ensuring that either your number two or your team are on board with what you're trying to achieve. So, again, I'll I'll mention the word alignment again, that everyone's gotta be coming from the same place. If everyone's gotta have that sort of similar energy to be trying to achieve the same thing. So that's the first thing. I think, secondly, it's about as a leader or as a finance leader, ensuring that maybe you've set a finance strategy. So, again, you're sharing the big picture and that everyone has a part to play in in achieving that. So being very, very clear with what everyone's role is and what they're doing and particularly why. So some things may be obvious, but not not everything is so obvious. So being extremely clear on, you know, exactly what everyone has to do to play their part.

And it's it's a hard topic, but I think you've, covered the, sort of, the core of it. And I think that's always the challenge, isn't it? It's It's fine. Making sure you have the right people in the first place to be able to delegate too well, and be able to deliver that. So it comes back to your original point, I think, about making sure you've got the right, team around you as you move forward.

I was gonna no. I was just gonna add that you you got to deal with, the performance at the right time and ensure that other people see you dealing with that because what what you have to watch is the dynamic of the team. And if if no if not everyone is playing their part, it won't just be you that sees it. Other people will see it. So you almost have a responsibility to the team to ensure that everyone is doing what they need to do.

Yeah, absolutely. And that comes back to the, I think I did a podcast way back when, when I first started CFO four point zero, and it was all about building high performing teams. And like you say, one of the biggest killers of high performance is when your your weakest member, those performance issues aren't addressed and actually getting in and going. Yeah. Because everyone else feels like they're shouldering the burden for that person. It creates resentment. It creates a culture of why should I, and that's, that's always a challenge to address and, and it's harder to fix it, but it is sometimes to address it in the first place.

Yeah. I think, I think the, the difficulty at the moment is that a lot of people bring this up. I do group mentoring sessions with Grow CFO and we look at the top challenges that people have, the sort of I call them top personal challenges, but they, you know, they're they're slightly broader than that. And maximizing your team's performance comes up time and time again. But often it's that people are carrying underperformers. Possibly, they need to really work out their tactics for for dealing with that. But possibly the other the other angle of it is that there's sometimes not enough investment in finance. And, again, a lot of it's from the perception of value that that support functions more generally bring or don't bring as as people perceive it. So you've really got to stand up as a finance lead and and, you know, portray that that value adds of the function and show what people are doing because often it becomes very natural. You know, you do one thing and another thing and another thing, and it's all part of our natural work, but other people need to see sometimes what's really going on below the surface. And and and also it starts with your own self worth. So what do I bring as a leader, as a finance leader? What value do I bring? What what what successes have I had? So it does start with the person recognizing themselves, what they bring for themselves to the organization, and then what the team bring as well. Ideally, then that supports further investment in the team to make it a very high performing function.

And I I think that's an interesting point. So what obviously, I spend a lot of time going in and digging into people's processes, figuring out, you know, why isn't this finance team as efficient as it could be. And, I won't say all of the time, but in a significant number of cases, actually, some of the inefficiencies are being driven by other areas of the organization whereby the finance leader hasn't stood up to that team and gone, this is, either unsustainable or unscalable, and making them aware of the impact it's having, you know, in terms of efficiency and, you know, capability within the team. And I always find that really interesting because I do feel like finance lit tries its very best to support the rest of the organization, and it doesn't always challenge as effectively as it could do.

Yeah. I mean, when you take the the if you look at an organization, if every process, every transaction, everything that anyone does in an organization ultimately leads to a financial transaction. So I I'm personally I've always had a very sort of strong role in in the the whole sort of governance internal control process structure for a very good reason that when that's working and that foundation is in place, then things flow. And again, everyone understands their part. We talked earlier about the finance team understanding their parts, but this is across the whole organization. It's like, what leads to what? You know, what what someone does in one part of an organization impacts another. So as a finance lead, you've you have got to be looking at the whole organization. You can look at it as a value chain analysis. You can look at where the value points are and and make sure that's being sort of maximized, but it is about the whole organization, not not just the finance part.

And and I think that's even more important because obviously finance you know, again, we talked about taking on more responsibilities, tend to, you know, take on responsibility for, for managing the processes internally. Like you say, putting in controls, assessing risks, managing that whole piece yet they very often don't have a huge amount of say on what goes on at the beginning part of the process, which I find really interesting. So it is a whole, and we could probably spend all day just talking about process decide. Don't get me started on that. That's one of my favorite topics to talk about. But so fundamentally let let's, let's sort of, let's do a recap on, So we we want to step into that strategic role. We want to shift our, capability to step back and really add that value in our finance leader role. What are the, you know, the five things that, every finance leader needs to make sure they're doing to create that space and create that capacity to do that.

Well, let's let's just see if it is five, but I'll speak of this. I think the first thing is your own health. Your well-being as a leader is number one. I'll I'll use the term it's your superpower, but I really it's your emotional, your mental, and your physical well-being are at the top of that list for me, because you are doing a very, responsible job and, and a job that ideally is looking after organization for the longer term. So you've got to look after yourself and that it never gets quieter. There is not a quiet time as a finance leader. So, you know, first and foremost, look after yourself because in that place, you will actually have a much clearer head anyway. So that's number one, your energy. So number one is your energy, but, associated with your well-being. If you can show up with that energy, then you're gonna be in the best place possible to, a, think strategically or think more creatively, think with just different perspective. And and decision making is is by far at that level. You you you're probably gonna be making decisions every single day, so make sure you're in the best place to do it. So look after your mind and and make sure it's in the best place to actually show up in those meetings. I think thirdly, what is these are not any particular order, really, but I think having feeling confident is is critically important, because that will translate into how you show up physically. And a lot of gravitas is around in a sense, when I say how you show up physically, but your body language, you know, that sort of common in control way. So you've you've gotta be thinking, I do feel confident. I I love when I say love working with people who don't have that feeling yet is because in my own career, that was what made the biggest difference. So along with looking after myself and keeping myself in that sense, fit and healthy, actually feeling confident made the most difference. If, if fact, it made so much difference. I felt like a different person. So if you're not feeling that way, do you get the support you need to feel it? Because other people also respect you in that place. They don't there isn't a lot of room at leadership level to have doubts. There isn't. So if you're joining a board, you're an equal board member from day one, you know, with an equal voice, just make sure you feel that way and and don't sort of sit there, not not feeling that way. I think, I think communication, they're all connected, but communication is is is very, very important. We talked earlier about allowing yourself the time to think about what what is coming up. How do I need to be in this particular meeting or in this presentation or in this in this engagement with someone? You know, what they need from you is almost more important than what you think they need from you. That was something I I learned over my career. I said, well, I know what they need. And when I asked them, I found it was quite a different angle on it. So, so really spend the time. This is maybe the fifth point is around relationships, which is do spend the time building relationships and your network and ensuring that people know you for who you are. So allow a little bit of vulnerability in there, allow a bit of personal side to come in because the more people know you, the more rapport there is, the more trust and understanding follows. So that that relation, it it is all about relationships. And if that isn't the natural strength, then please get again, get the support you need to to to make sure that is something that that feels a little bit more natural. And, because that is the the the basis. It's it's the basis for business partnerships. It's the basis for, yeah, trust. And and really when people like you and know you, they're they're more inclined to go along with what you're suggesting anyway. So again, then, then the influence part is, is much more natural. So I think that sums it up. There's probably more to say, but yeah, I think that sums it up.

And you made it to five points as well. Thank you, Gavin. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for sharing your insight and and and some real food for thought. I think for everyone, anyone that's sitting there wondering whether anyone else has ever felt unconfident or felt like they're not quite, doing doing a good job. I think there's some really great feedback. But for any of our listeners that wants maybe get some help, or perhaps some advice from yourself, where's the best place to find you? You know, how how can they find about more about some of the work that you do?

Yeah. So, I mean, I have I have my own website. So that's, crystalum dot co dot u k. So I'm almost on LinkedIn as well. I'm on the, Grow CFO platform. So Grow CFO is Grow CFO, dot net. That that's really good actually also if you have if you're thinking about yourself and a team, they run their CFO program as well and and contribute to the sessions on the future CFO program. So it and then in the ICAW, they have their own sort of leadership programs again, which incorporate mentoring. So I I guess I guess the answer is you can find me really quite easily.

You don't have to look very far.

Very far. And, it it's just about thinking what will work best for me or for me and my team or or what combination of support, whether it's one to one mentoring, which I think is excellent for going a bit more in-depth personally, or programs which give you that peer support on top of that. But, I I really do think there is there is a good combination to support people in what can be quite a lonely role at times.

And it's great to see the the increase in these programs to support CFOs, trans or people even that are transitioning into a CFO role. It I must have seen they're starting to appear there's more of them available, which is brilliant, I think, you know, because it, like you say, it can be quite a lonely role, you know, stepping into that CFO piece. Well, thank you so much, Catherine. And to all those listening, thank you so much for listening. If you if I missed a question, if there was something you wish I'd asked Catherine, then please do reach out. Tell me if there's any topics you feel like we should explore further on the show. I always love feedback. And if you particularly enjoyed this episode, please do give it a mention in a review, share, share us on LinkedIn or your TikTok or whatever is your social platform of choice. It's always great to get feedback, on how, you know, how people are finding the podcast. So thank you again, Catherine. And to all of our listeners, thank you for listening, and we will see you on the next episode of CFO four point o.

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